Question at the end, moral.

[para]

PISCATAWAY, N.J. – The death of a Rutgers University freshman stirred outrage and remorse among classmates who said they wished they could have stopped the teen from jumping off a bridge after secret video of his sexual encounter with a man was streamed online.
Tyler Clementi, 18, jumped off the George Washington Bridge into the Hudson River last week. His body was identified Thursday after being found in the river a day before.
"Had he been in bed with a woman, this would not have happened," said Rutgers student Lauren Felton, 21, of Warren. "He wouldn't have been outed via an online broadcast, and his privacy would have been respected and he might still have his life."
Clementi had just started at Rutgers, which bills itself as the state university of New Jersey, and was a talented violinist whose life revolved around music, friends and mentors said.
"Musically, Tyler was destined for greatness," childhood friend Mary Alcaro, who played in a summer music academy with him, said Thursday in an e-mail to The Associated Press. "I've never heard anyone make a violin sing the way he did."
Ed Schmiedecke, the recently retired music director at Ridgewood High School, from which Clementi graduated this year, called Clementi "a terrific musician, and a very promising, hardworking young man."
Clementi's roommate, Dharun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers freshman Molly Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading Clementi's privacy. Middlesex County prosecutors say that they used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a live image of Clementi having sex Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi's suicide.
Collecting or viewing sexual images without consent is a fourth-degree crime, and transmitting them is a third-degree crime with a maximum prison term of five years. A lawyer for Ravi, of Plainsboro, did not immediately return a message seeking comment, and it was unclear whether Wei, of Princeton, had retained a lawyer.
A spokesman for the Middlesex County prosecutor's office didn't return messages inquiring whether there could be additional charges, and experts diverged on the potential for the pair to face more severe charges in light of Clementi's apparent suicide.
Parry Aftab, who runs the website WiredSafety, said it's possible the classmates could be prosecuted for violating Clementi's civil rights.
"If these kids could get away with one privacy law violation, that would be a sin," she said.
But former assistant Essex County prosecutor Luanne Peterpaul said such a prosecution was unlikely because the federal government doesn't recognize sexual orientation as a protected class.
Peterpaul, vice chairwoman of the gay rights group Garden State Equality, said prosecutors might be able to pursue the case as a hate crime if they could establish that the defendants were motivated to act because they perceived Clementi as gay. But that can be hard to prove, she said.
A lawyer for Clementi's family has not responded to requests for comment on whether Clementi was open about his sexual orientation.
Gov. Chris Christie, a former federal prosecutor, said he would let Attorney General Paula Dow decide whether to prosecute two classmates on civil rights charges. But he sent a warning to students who taunt or pull pranks on others.
"You don't know the feelings of the people on the receiving end of that," he said. "You can't possibly know. There might be some people who could take that type of treatment and deal with it, and there might be others, as this young man obviously was, who are much more greatly affected by it."
His death also stirred outrage at his new school, even if he wasn't very well known.
"The notion that video of Tyler doing what he was doing can be considered a spectacle is just heinous," said Jordan Gochman, 19, of Jackson, who didn't know Clementi. "It's intolerant, it's upsetting, it makes it seem that being gay is something that is wrong and can be considered laughable."


So my question is, should the people who set up the video cam get charged for murder?

[shiatsu^26]

Oh Wow!. That is so incredibly sad.
My first instinct would be to say Yes. (under the circumstances it was obtained, but on the other hand, I wonder if it really wouldnt be Man Slaughter.

I would need to think about it more, before giving more input.

[TOAO]

I think it's a different precedent than the myspace thing. I think this would be, or should be worse.

As far as the shame thing, taping to men having sex is about as bad as being one of the 2 men. Seems like the only difference would be wardrobe.

[4nik8]

So my question is, should the people who set up the video cam get charged for murder?

NEWP.

They didn't kill him. He committed suicide.

[TOAO]

We'll have to see how Jersey goes, here they'd be fuct

Queers have money, & large numbers.


Steven Goldstein, chairman of the gay rights group Garden State Equality, said in a written statement that his group considers Clementi's death a hate crime.

"We are heartbroken over the tragic loss of a young man who, by all accounts, was brilliant, talented and kind," Goldstein said. "And we are sickened that anyone in our society, such as the students allegedly responsible for making the surreptitious video, might consider destroying others' lives as a sport."

If a hate crime enhancement is added to the charges, it would increase the maximum potential prison sentence to 10 years.



Give it a minute, and Gloria Allred will show up.

[ozzman62]

Ok , Assholes that posted the Vid ? " After secret video of his sexual encounter with a man was streamed online. " An Illegally obtained Video graphic image was made publicly available without consent ? People PLEASE ! Regardless of the mans Sexual orientation , Would you want ( If it were you in the said Vid ) Want this released to the general public ?!?!?! . This is WRONG , This is a crime anyway you look at it . What if it was your Daughter ? Caught in a same sex encounter . Is it any different ? I think NOT . Despicable , Reprehensible , And as far as I am concerned... Culpable to a degree .

IMO .

[Angeleyes]

Wow. It is amazing what people think they can get away with. It wasn't enough for them to do it once and destroy this kids life but they intended to do it again. As for murder, no I do not believe they should be charged with murder, however I do believe they should be charged for negligent manslaughter. They didn't intend on killing him, just destroying his life. He made the choice to end his life but they are responsible for leading him to that choice.

[Freewilly]

Man that is tragic :( fucking bastards !!

[rc2james]

Speaking as a member of an older generation, I can see how technology has pushed us into a world that can recall stupid stunts from a past that people would like to forget. The old “Skeletons in the Closet” of years gone by can exist for an eternity in digital format which can conceivably reappear at anytime. Most people can outlive questionable and sometime embarrassing incidents in life but not if they are kept for a posterity.

[LEFT]

murder? no

but a person who yells "JUMP!" while another is on the ledge isn't charged either

but anything else they can throw the book at (oh please find something) they should

how evil is it to relish in the misfortune or embarrassment of another

(I'm sure they would say they were "just razzing" him)

they should all be shunned for life and reminded every day all day the consequence of their EVIL act....the thing is, people like that know what they did was wrong but will never accept responsibility

[StoneTheCrow]

The phrase depraved indifference comes to mind, I watch Law & Order ya know. :tongue:

[shiatsu^26]

Ok , Assholes that posted the Vid ? " After secret video of his sexual encounter with a man was streamed online. " An Illegally obtained Video graphic image was made publicly available without consent ? People PLEASE ! Regardless of the mans Sexual orientation , Would you want ( If it were you in the said Vid ) Want this released to the general public ?!?!?! . This is WRONG , This is a crime anyway you look at it . What if it was your Daughter ? Caught in a same sex encounter . Is it any different ? I think NOT . Despicable , Reprehensible , And as far as I am concerned... Culpable to a degree .

IMO .

I agree. This also brings to mind.. If this guy was a celebrity, he would have had enough power & money to ..
A. Prevent the vid from hitting the stream in the 1st place
and Or B. Sue the punks to the point their grand kids had no college fund.

Just a random thought.

[Baldy]

From what I've seen in the news about this case, the only thing they can probably charge them with is, invasion of privacy.

The boy that taped him, was his room mate. So no illegal recording law was broken. To get any kind of legal action in the death, it would have to be proved that they would have had to have a reasonable expectation that the boy would kill himself, because of their action. That would be next to impossible to prove, unless they told someone that, or wrote it somewhere.

While what they did is despicable, which is a good description of them also, I don't think they intended for this boy to end up dead. If they have any morals at all, they will be punishing themselves for the rest of their lives, for their actions and what was cause by them. We can only hope.

As for the law, they should be prosecuted for breaking any applicable laws. They should also be kicked out of school and no other school should allow them to enroll. Also, make sure that the people in their home towns know what they did. Plastering their pictures and what they did on the front pages of their hometown newspapers and news broadcasts comes to mind. Sort of doing to them what they did to that young man.

[gigman]

So my question is, should the people who set up the video cam get charged for murder?

Hell no. They didn't push him off the bridge.

If you are going to be queer you are just going to have to deal with the bullshit that comes with it.

Now, the guys did break the law for filming without consent and posting it without consent. Now if that is the case, then there is a lot of crap on Youtube that I bet isn't done with people's consent.

[gigman]

They should also be kicked out of school and no other school should allow them to enroll. Also, make sure that the people in their home towns know what they did. Plastering their pictures and what they did on the front pages of their hometown newspapers and news broadcasts comes to mind. Sort of doing to them what they did to that young man.

That's a little harsh for a prank wouldn't you think. I'm sure they had no idea that the guy was so unstable.:neutral:

[LEFT]

<<subscribes to the notion of "an eye for an eye"

[Baldy]

Nope, I don't think it's at all too harsh.

They invaded this young mans privacy with disastrous consequences. People should be responsible for what they do. They chose to film this young man, they watched the film, then decided to put it up for others to watch. They even encouraged others to watch, not once, but twice they did this, even though the second time they couldn't get it to broadcast.

What that young man did in the privacy of his bedroom was his private business. They had no right to do him what they did. And what they did ended up in with his death. They should be severely punished. The law only allows them to be punished for the laws they broke. No plea deal should be accepted, and they should be sentenced to the maximum. But that's not enough.

They should be made an example of, so that "everyone" will know what this kind of thing is not going to be accepted.

The real question should be here is: How long are we going to let this kind of thing go on and in fact encourage this kind of thing? How many more have to die before we stand up to the bullies and say enough?

I've read about two other young people this week that killed themselves because of bullying because they were different. It happens much more than most of us realize.

[4nik8]

<<subscribes to the notion of "an eye for an eye"

You wanna take vids of THEM having sex and post 'em?

[4nik8]

Nope, I don't think it's at all too harsh.

They invaded this young mans privacy with disastrous consequences. People should be responsible for what they do. They chose to film this young man, they watched the film, then decided to put it up for others to watch. They even encouraged others to watch, not once, but twice they did this, even though the second time they couldn't get it to broadcast.

What that young man did in the privacy of his bedroom was his private business. They had no right to do him what they did. And what they did ended up in with his death. They should be severely punished. The law only allows them to be punished for the laws they broke. No plea deal should be accepted, and they should be sentenced to the maximum. But that's not enough.

They should be made an example of, so that "everyone" will know what this kind of thing is not going to be accepted.

The real question should be here is: How long are we going to let this kind of thing go on and in fact encourage this kind of thing? How many more have to die before we stand up to the bullies and say enough?

I've read about two other young people this week that killed themselves because of bullying because they were different. It happens much more than most of us realize.

Agreed that they should be punished for the laws they broke ie privacy.

As for people offing themselves over shame?
Perhaps it's Darwinism at it's best.

I can't see wanting to off myself because of somebody doing something heinous to me.

I CAN see wanting to off THEM though.

[Baldy]

You wanna take vids of THEM having sex and post 'em?

Might not be a bad idea, but with a twist. Take vids of them getting raped in prison and then post them where the people that know them can see them and see how they deal with the shame.

I can't see wanting to off myself because of somebody doing something heinous to me.

Personally, I can't either, but not everyone can deal with that kind of shame the same way. And remember, we are talking about immature young people here, not adults, that might not have learned that only death is forever. Give them a few years and they might deal with it in a more mature manner. The young man that this happened to was only 18. The two I mentioned reading about, were even younger.

[4nik8]

Personally, I can't either, but not everyone can deal with that kind of shame the same way. And remember, we are talking about immature young people here, not adults, that might not have learned that only death is forever. Give them a few years and they might deal with it in a more mature manner. The young man that this happened to was only 18. The two I mentioned reading about, were even younger.

I kinda see where you're coming from..but.. I really don't think age has much to do with it.
I think it's more a mind set than anything.
Kind of like when there's a disaster of what ever type.

You have those that jump into action and those that freeze.

There's really only two reactions when broken down into the most fundamental form: fight or flight.

That dude chose flight. He just wasn't any good at it.

:bigsmile:

[TOAO]

As far as my jurisdiction comment. Here, they'd be screwed. If in wasn't covered by a law, they will make one.

Here is a good example. In your area, how much time would someone get for threatening to sic a dog on someone?

SANTA ANA – A Santa Ana man was sentenced to 19 years, four months in prison Friday for assault and making criminal threats for using his Rottweiler as an attack dog.
Witnesses testified during a jury trial in May that Dale Franklin Wensinger, 47, went to Lillie King Park in Santa Ana and threatened to sic the large dog on passersby, and allowed the dog to lunge at the end of his leash while yelling and threatening several people.

[Aloha Jack]

Murder, no. That's not the crime they committed. But, the max, 5 years for taping illegally, YES! The max because it resulted in a wrongful death.

[shiatsu^26]

I kinda see where you're coming from..but.. I really don't think age has much to do with it.


I have looked into this alot lately. I found that Statistically....

Most suicides are White Males under the age of 30.

If memory serves the NEXT highest was Men over the age of 85.

I dunno, just thought I would share. This is kinda a touchy subject for me, so maybe personal experience is what makes me want to see these punks pay for their actions.

It just makes me so sad to think of all the people roaming that are fighting thier own personal demons. And that in this society some what think what these guys did with this vid. was funny.
And since this guy decided he couldnt take anymore, there are also people who would say "Be a man & get over it" or something like it. (Not pointing a finger at anyone here , js)

Who is ANYONE to decide & judge what someone Should be able to take, in the name of "Razzing" or what the hell ever you want to call it.
And if it devastates someones world to the point that they dont want to be a part of it anymore, is just HORRIBLE to me.
This world is what we all make of it. We all are part of SOMEONE elses world. What we say & what we do affects how their world works.

You dont just get to have a hand in destroying someones world & their mental sanity, and expect to walk away, with the attitude of "Oh well, His Dumb Ass was the one who decided to jump"
BULLSHIT
These guys are REAL lucky he didnt do like some people do , and gun down or bomb these 2, and their families before taking his life.

Seems like everyone gets so caught up in legalities, that they allow them to excuse them for not having decent humanity.
The article never said, but just imagine how many times this Boy asked these 2 guys (and others) to Stop & leave him alone. Maybe he did, maybe he didnt, but these guys were ruthless & viscous, and somehow Need to OWN thier part in this, and GIVE BACK something of themselves to this world somehow , someway. Some hardcore & humbling community service on top of what ever they actually get charged with.

I No longer think they should be charged with Murder. What good does it to to take 2 more young lives. Hopefully they will be remorseful & do something with their lives to lift other people up, and maybe even have a hand in bringing a few people Back from a ledge instead of pushing them over it.

[TOAO]

Very well said. My attitude has always been "why kill yourself, kill the person causing you grief instead"

[4nik8]

I kinda see where you're coming from..but.. I really don't think age has much to do with it.

... under the age of 30.....over the age of 85.

Thanks. Across the age spectrum. And certainly NOT a result of immaturity..as I was pointing out.

And since this guy decided he couldnt take anymore, there are also people who would say "Be a man & get over it" or something like it. (Not pointing a finger at anyone here , js)


Your "js" needs to be addressed. (because I love how those 2 letters seem to toss around so much weight at the users whim while feigning being absolved...not to mention the fact you stated that in conjunction with MY post)

I said there are two types of people. Fight or flight.
Those who crumble under stress and those who thrive on it.
js

[shiatsu^26]

Your "js" needs to be addressed. (because I love how those 2 letters seem to toss around so much weight at the users whim while feigning being absolved...not to mention the fact you stated that in conjunction with MY post)


Okay I will address this. I am afraid you read to much into it. It was not my intent to put you on the defensive, truly.

It just makes me so sad to think of all the people roaming that are fighting thier own personal demons. And that in this society some what think what these guys did with this vid. was funny.
And since this guy decided he couldnt take anymore, there are also people who would say "Be a man & get over it" or something like it. (Not pointing a finger at anyone here , js)


The ONLY reason I quoted you originally was to share the age info.

I put This there, because, at that point I was stating my opinion(s) that had nothing to do with you or your post, BUT since I had quoted you previously, I didn't want to come across that this paragraph was referring to you or anyone else. I was just talking & thinking out loud at this point.
SO honestly & truly I was JUST SAYING, that I wasnt directing my comments at any one imparticular.

[4nik8]

It was not my intent to put you on the defensive, truly.

No worries. You didn't.

I just wanted to clear up any possible misconceptions.
Either by you or anyone reading your post.

[gigman]

Personally, I can't either, but not everyone can deal with that kind of shame the same way. And remember, we are talking about immature young people here, not adults, that might not have learned that only death is forever. Give them a few years and they might deal with it in a more mature manner. The young man that this happened to was only 18. The two I mentioned reading about, were even younger.

That is why I was saying that you were being a little harsh. Immaturity is the reason they did something stupid without thinking about the consequences. It's not worth a lifetime of punishment. They will grow up some day and realize what they did. Then they will probably loose sleep over it.

The kid that jumped was already mentally unstable or else he would have been able to cope with it. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back ,as they say.

[ozzman62]

Bullshit , The little Bastards made their choice so let them deal with the end result . They are old enough to know better and should have . why the fuck can't people just own up to their wrong doings and take the heat ? Cowards , My answer .

[gigman]

Bullshit , The little Bastards made their choice so let them deal with the end result . They are old enough to know better and should have . why the fuck can't people just own up to their wrong doings and take the heat ? Cowards , My answer .

lol Calm down son. We are all friends here. :tongue:

[ozzman62]

Yes we are , But I still stand by my statement .

[TOAO]

So how would any of you feel if someone secretly taped you and your S/O having a sexual encounter, and posting it on the web?

[Angeleyes]

So how would any of you feel if someone secretly taped you and your S/O having a sexual encounter, and posting it on the web?

Well first off, I would feel sorry for the poor folks that watched it :neutral: however I would file every lawsuit, criminal and civil I could. It is a complete invasion of privacy. I however am generally a non-violent person so yea I would want to beat the hell out of them but wouldn't. I am also not one to cause self injury so committing suicide would be out as well. I can see how a young person struggling with their sexual identity and self esteem would easily be pushed over the edge by it.

[TOAO]

Taping someone changing or something is bad enough, but to tape them having sex kicks it up a notch, because it is a very private (usually) thing between to people.

And as I keep mentioning jurisdiction, her, a basic rule of thumb, is if it can be perceived as you gaining some kind of gratification from it, it becomes a sexual offense. And if you're convicted, you become a sex offender. Good luck explaining the difference to someone after that happens.

[gigman]

So how would any of you feel if someone secretly taped you and your S/O having a sexual encounter, and posting it on the web?

I have a few that I'll send ya.:wink:

[gigman]

I wonder if this guy killed himself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeiNl9vUlXc

[TOAO]

That was funny Gig, but you see my point. Everybody has the right to keep something like that private. Even a couple of twinks.

I have to say I'm really surprised Gloria Allred hasn't jumped on this.

[gigman]

That was funny Gig, but you see my point. Everybody has the right to keep something like that private. Even a couple of twinks

I agree totally.

[TOAO]

And as far as our fucked up laws, I always find this amusing

He is charged with one felony count of murder with a sentencing enhancement for the personal use of a deadly weapon

I see it a lot in the paper. Call me crazy, but if you kill someone with something, wouldn't it then automatically be a deadly weapon? You just killed someone with it. I'm waiting for someone to kill someone with a dildo.

[4nik8]

I'm waiting for someone to kill someone with a dildo.

You just can't help yourself...

[TOAO]

I wasn't talking about using it the way you would, I meant using one of the big ones as a club. Never underestimate the comedic potential of a rubber dick.

Imagine how funny it would be to send a midget dressed in a superman suit to show up at someone's business meeting and start beating em with a big rubber dick.

That shit would be funnier that sending a male stripper to someone's bachelor party.

[gigman]

I wasn't talking about using it the way you would, I meant using one of the big ones as a club. Never underestimate the comedic potential of a rubber dick.

Imagine how funny it would be to send a midget dressed in a superman suit to show up at someone's business meeting and start beating em with a big rubber dick.

That shit would be funnier that sending a male stripper to someone's bachelor party.

lol Only you could come up with something like that.:squigglemouth:

[TOAO]

And see, the sentence started with "LOL"

I'm sure you can think of someone it would be great to have it done to. Angeleyes probably has the dildo, now all you'd need is to find Nik a superman suit.

I've never wanted to see guns&roses, especially the recent version, but if I had one of those flying ones, I'd be there in a heartbeat.

[TOAO]

Here you go Nik.

As I said, always funny.

Plus you can learn a new way to user a dildo on a girl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THHDRvNnIy8&has_verified=1

[4nik8]

Thanks, pardner.

Not for a video (supposedly) about dildos and chicks...but because you didn't go with your natural tendencies and post something about fucking men in the ass...

it had to be tough for you.

[Freewilly]

I wonder if this guy killed himself?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeiNl9vUlXc

Did he wipe that on his shirt :tongue:

[TOAO]

You're the one that keeps bringing up men taking it in the ass.

[4nik8]

:neutral: